The WrestlingSmarks History Club

[Kairi HoHo]

You go back far enough and the fun becomes deciphering what you think is myth vs history. One common theory is that the demi-gods of Greek Mythology were added to the mythos later and based on actual humans that accomplished great feats and were deified themselves

Example Cronus Zeus's Father swallowing his Children because he was told that one of his kids were going to overtake him. Pretty funny when it happens when the Sibilngs come together and make it happen when he thought he thought he swallowed them as babies but in fact he was swallowing Boulders or Rocks.

 

[Barry Poppins]

There's actually ample evidence to suggest that the story of Theseus and the Minotaur is actually a mythological retelling of how the Mycenaean Greeks overthrew their tributary relationship against the Minoans, and the myth came about primarily because of the Bronze Age Collapse and the details of the actual war between the Mycenaeans and Minoans being lost to time, so all we have is the legend of a Greek Hero saving his people from the tyranny and tribute of the evil king Minos and his labyrinthian (read: the temples of the Minoans) Bull-monster (the Bull iconography that the Minoans used)

 

[Chris]

The Centaurs are also most likely based on the nomadic horse archers of the Steppe for another example.

Also there's a crazy amount of most likely purely mythological stories, but some including real people, of guys trying to avoid faith by killing or exiling the person or thing they're told will kill them. An especially funny one from the Russian primary chronicle tells of a guy who was told his horse would be the cause of his death so he sent the horse away bc he didn't want it killed. Years later he asks what happened to it and the guy says they just killed it anyway but they kept the skull. King dude laughs that he was told the horse would kill him, steps on the skull, which had a snake inside it, who then bit, poisoned, and killed the guy.

Certainly didn't actually happen bc pretty sure there's Byzantine records from well after this death supposedly happened of that guy still alive

 

[Barry Poppins]

That reminds me of a tale about the 1st Punic Wars, which itself is based off of Aulus Gellius's (2nd Century CE) writings, which itself is sourced from Quintus Aelius Tubero (1st Century BCE). Livy (1st Century CE) also would write about the tale, likely drawing from the same source as Gellius. It's the infamous story of the "Bagradas Dragon".

Tubero's version is thusly:

The consul Atilius Regulus, when encamped at the Bagradas river in Africa, fought a stubborn and fierce battle with a single serpent of extraordinary size, which had its lair in that region; that in a might struggle with the entire army the reptile was attacked for a long time with hurling engines and catapults; and that when it was finally killed, its skin, a hundred and twenty feet long, was sent to Rome.

Livy's version of the tale follows:

The serpent of the Bagradas River in Africa was of such a size that it denied the army of Regulus access to the river. Many soldiers it seized in its enormous mouth and crushed to death not a few of them with its whirling tail. It could not be penetrated by the missiles thrown at it. Finally, they attacked it with many stones launched from ballistae from every side, it was brought down by the weighty blows.

Finally, we have a third, more lengthy source that was preserved by Paulus Orosius (4th/5th Century CE), which may or may not have utilized both Livy, Gellius, and Tubero's tale to draw his conclusions, but we don't know.

Regulus, chosen by lot for the Carthaginian War, marched with his army to a point not far from the Bagrada River and there pitched his camp. In that place a reptile of astonishing size devoured many of the soldiers as they went down to the river to get water. Regulus set out with his army to attack the reptile. Neither the javelins they hurled nor the darts they rained upon its back had any effect. These glided off its horrible scaly fins as if from a slanting testudo of shields and were in some miraculous fashion turned away from its body so that the creature suffered no injury.

Finally, when Regulus saw that it was killing a great number of his soldiers with its bites, was trampling them down by its charge, and driving them mad by its poisonous breath, he ordered ballistae brought up. A stone taken from a wall was hurled by a ballista; this struck the spine of the serpent and caused its entire body to become numb. The formation of the reptile was such that, though it seemed to lack feet, yet it had ribs and scales graded evenly, extending from the top of its throat to the lowest part of its belly and so arranged that the creature rested upon its scales as if on claws and upon its ribs as if on legs.

But it did not move like the worm which has a flexible spine and moves by first stretching its contracted parts in the direction of its tiny body and then drawing together the stretched parts. This reptile made its way by a sinuous movement, extending its sides first right and then left, so that it might keep the line of ribs rigid along the exterior arch of the spine; nature fastened the claws of its scales to its ribs, which extend straight to their highest point; making these moves alternately and quickly, it not only glided over levels, but also mounted inclines, taking as many footsteps, so to speak, as it had ribs.

This is why the stone rendered the creature powerless. If struck by a blow in any part of the body from its bowels to its head, it is crippled and unable to move, because wherever the blow falls, it numbs the spine, which stimulates the feet of the ribs and the motion of the body. Hence this serpent, which had for a long time withstood so many javelins unharmed, moved about disabled from the blow of a single stone and, quickly overcome by spears, was easily destroyed. Its skin was brought to Rome—it is said to have been one hundred and twenty feet in length— and for some time was an object of wonder to all.

So what does this tale say to us? I think it's actually about original sources and how history is really just one big game of telephone.

 

[Chris]

Big snake

 

[Barry Poppins]

Big snake

It probably really was just an oversized viper (possibly Moorish Viper or a saw-scaled viper) that was may or may not have killed one or two soldiers, and the story was blown out of proportion lol

 

[Chris]

It probably really was just an oversized viper (possibly Moorish Viper or a saw-scaled viper) that was may or may not have killed one or two soldiers, and the story was blown out of proportion lol

Yeah I think this is the case with most things. It's exaggeration and later embellishing when the story was transmitted orally, but usually based on some original true event. I don't think a lot of outright fiction came along for a lot longer, where the intention was making up a new story as opposed to writing down a historical tale you believed was true yourself and filling in some blanks that made logical sense to you

 

[Barry Poppins]

Meanwhile the entire history of early Rome is absolutely fiction lel. Aeneas, the Alba Longa kings, Romulus/Remulus, the Seven Kings, all absolutely retconned history

 

[Chris]

The way they retrofitted all of their stuff onto Greek stories and then translated every other culture's beliefs to somehow just be alternate translations to theirs was pure insanity. They saw themselves as the center of the world the first time they had any success and never stopped until they were gone.

 

[Barry Poppins]

The way they retrofitted all of their stuff onto Greek stories and then translated every other culture's beliefs to somehow just be alternate translations to theirs was pure insanity. They saw themselves as the center of the world the first time they had any success and never stopped until they were gone.

At which point Russia took over the mantle

 

[Chris]

Even the Rome creation myths were widely believed as just absolute fact though, not fiction. I agree those have almost no real basis in real life, but it's insane to think how everyone believed on them like we believe in gravity now. But yeah they're almost entirely siphoned off ideas and narratives from other cultures Rome had interacted with lol they steal everything