No 5* matches since '97? WTF?

[MikeRaw]

I don't know how much stock people put in to anything Dave Meltzer writes, or reviews, but that doesn't really matter anyway. I was just browsing last night out of boredom, and looking over his list of 5* matches. I noticed that in the WWF/E, there's onyl been four 5* matches in history. What's more shocking? The last one was (according to him) Taker/HBK- HIAC- Badd Blood 1997. That was a great match, for sure, and had a bit of everything. A good feud, a new match concept, a debut, brutality, and overall, and most of all, a really good match. But I can't help but think there has to have been some 5* matches since then. I don't wanna list some right now without thinking about it, but I'll think and try to come up with some other 5* matches over the years.. I just have a hard time thinking that it's been 12 years since WWE's last 5* match. Do you agree with this? I'm pretty sure I don't, but I've gotta think of some other great matches since then, to know for sure. Do you HBK/Taker HIAC was the last 5* match?

 

[Airfixx]

Makes me laugh.... If Taker/HBK HIAC was now there's no way it'd get a 5-star rating with THAT ending!



I see what you're saying, but how many 5-star matches did he deem there to be in WWF BEFORE Bad Blood 97?

I can't think of too many plausible candidates to be honest if that's the way their ratings work...


Edit: Before this thread deteriorates into peeps listing their fave matches/5-star lists, there's already a similar thread which kicked off a week or so after WM.

 

[MikeRaw]

This is the list of 5 star matches in the history of WWE according to him:
-Razor Ramonn vs Shawn Michaels, ladder match
-Bret Hart vs Owen Hart, Summerslam '94
-Bret Hart vs Stee Austin, WM14
And then of course the HBK/Taker one.

I'm not starting a debate here, cause it isn't even my opinion (I'm not sure, yet, actually), but would you consider any of the HBK vs Angle matches to be 5* worthy? I remember them being great, and I'm trying to think if they should be considered 5*. Either way, I just find it hard to think that there's been no 5* matches for over 12 years, lol.

 

[noumenon]

That's just a ridiculous statement. There as been some fucking incredible 5 star matches since 97.
HBK/Flair?
HBK/Taker (Mania)
Hell, had it not been for the lack of a finish I'de say Jericho/Cena on RAW a few weeks back was bordering on a 5 star match.

Those are just a few in recent memory....so fuck that statement.

 

[Airfixx]

This is the list of 5 star matches in the history of WWE according to him:
-Razor Ramonn vs Shawn Michaels, ladder match
-Bret Hart vs Owen Hart, Summerslam '94
-Bret Hart vs Stee Austin, WM14
And then of course the HBK/Taker one.

I'm not starting a debate here, cause it isn't even my opinion (I'm not sure, yet, actually), but would you consider any of the HBK vs Angle matches to be 5* worthy? I remember them being great, and I'm trying to think if they should be considered 5*. Either way, I just find it hard to think that there's been no 5* matches for over 12 years, lol.

No worries, not look to debate what is and what isn't 5star either - I don't really subscribe to star-ratings anyway - but if he has chosen not to give anything 5 stars since Oct97, then if anything I'm suprised if he'd EVER rated another WWF match as a 5 star.

For what it's worth, 3 of the 4 quoted are without a doubt my fave matches from the post '92 era.

To answer your question about HBK/Angle.... Best WWE matches of the decade IMO! (I hope that's not annoyingly evasive... It's not intended to be )


As already indicated above, what I find remarkable is the notion that a 5star match doesn't need a decisive and relatively clean finish.

 

[MikeRaw]

Yeah, I'd probably give HBK/Angle a 5 star as well. The WM one though. I know they had one on Raw, which was good, but not great. I remember the Vengeance one was also great, but I don't think it was quite 5 stars.
Edit: I actually liked the Vngeance one alot. I can't decide which was better, lol.

 

[Luke Flywalker]

Cena vs. HBK (Raw) was a 5* match.
Rock vs. Hogan at WrestleMania, was a 5* match.
Rock vs. Austin at any WrestleMania was 5*.


Some others mentioned in this thread I agree with. I don't think that just because some matches are CLEARLY 5* matches should hold a standard. HBK vs. Angle shouldn't be a standard for what a 5* match is. IMO, if you get the crowd into it, pull out some signature moves past (if you've been around long enough) and present, have a good sway of momentum back and forth, use all of the elements and possible styles... there's so much that can make a 5* match.

Shit, if Cena vs. Edge wasn't ended with Big Show, but by themselves, I'm almost certain you could have called it a 5* match.

Edge vs. Undertaker (WM) was 5* in my eyes.


There's no way it's only been 4. There are too many matches yearly, plenty of which occur on weekly shows, not just PPV's. They're less likely nowadays, but we get that random treat from time to time. And like noumenon said, even Cena vs. Jericho a few weeks back could have been a 5* match.

I'd rate any variation of Hardys/E&C/3D TLC matches as 5*'s as well.

 

[MikeRaw]

Cena vs. HBK (Raw) was a 5* match.
Rock vs. Hogan at WrestleMania, was a 5* match.
Rock vs. Austin at any WrestleMania was 5*.

I agree with both of those, except for Rock/Hogan. That was more 4.5 * to me, but you could make a case for a 5. Cena vs HBK at Raw will probably be one of the most underrated matches of all time.

 

[Next Big Thing]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread since you don't really want a list of matches that could have been 5 stars. So the only thing I will say is that I put absolutely nothing into Meltzer's rating system. I prefer to think for myself and decide if a match was good or not.

 

[Solid Stinger the Big Boss]

John Cena, and Edge had two 5* matches imo.

Summerslam, and Judgement Day.

 

[MikeRaw]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread since you don't really want a list of matches that could have been 5 stars. So the only thing I will say is that I put absolutely nothing into Meltzer's rating system. I prefer to think for myself and decide if a match was good or not.

I never said we couldn't make a list, or that you couldn't. In my first post, I said that I myself didn't want to make my own list right them (when I made this thread) because I had to think of what matches I consider to be 5 stars. I never said anything about not being able to make a list. Oh, and that's great that you want to "think for yourself", because that's what this thread's about. I wasn't asking yo uto agree with his ratings, because personally, I disagree with them as well. I don't really know what you're on about, but I'll just say, go ahead and list some of the matches that you would consider 5*. That's what the thread is for, anyway...

 

[Next Big Thing]

I never said we couldn't make a list, or that you couldn't. In my first post, I said that I myself didn't want to make my own list right them (when I made this thread) because I had to think of what matches I consider to be 5 stars. I never said anything about not being able to make a list.

Ya I just realized that I got your post and Airfixx' post mixed up because he mentioned that there was already another thread about 5 star matches.

In that case, there is really only 1 match that I would say has been 5 stars since 97, and that's the Rock vs. Austin at WM 17. The swerve at the end is what puts it at 5 stars for me. There have been a bunch of matches that were great, but needed just a little extra like a big time swerve at the end for me to put them at 5 stars. Hogan/Rock is a perfect example of that. I think when you ask people, they give way to many matches credit for being 5 stars. A 5 star match should be damn near perfect.

 

[MikeRaw]

^That will probably go down as one of the better swerves of all time. Could you imagine years before if someone had told you in say, 1999, that Austin would be heel at some point in his career? The majority of people would've laughed at the thought of that.

 

[Headfirst For Hardcore]

The fact is that Meltzer has a fetish for older Japanese men that are a little chunky (Samoa Joe included) so I don't see 5 stars being given to the WWE anytime soon. It really doesn't matter anyway, I don't even know why so many people follow him and just believe whatever his opinions are. Off the top of my head, here are the 5 star matches since 1997...

TLC from WMX-7
Benoit vs HHH vs HBK from WM20
Cena vs Edge (take your pick)
HBK vs Angle
Edge vs Taker would be close too.

 

[straight_edge76]

These are a few matches I think could be considered 5*

Austin/Rock Wrestlemania X7
TLC Summerslam 2000
TLC Wrestlemania X7
Bret Hart/HBK Wrestlemania 12
Jericho/HBK Wrestlemania 19 I believe?
Taker/Edge Wrestlemania 24
Benoit/Jericho Ladder Match Royal Rumble 2002
HBK/Benoit/HHH WM20