Great Debate Match #2:JJdabuckeye vs Travis40

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MattHardyV1

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The Rules are simple....Ill post a topic...the first person to respond will get to choose what side of the Topic they want to debate..If you reply first and you dont want to go first...just say so and your opponent will go first but he will also get to choose what side of the Debate he wants to defend....You will each get an openning statement,a reply,and a conclusion....3 posts each...after this is over the IWF members will get to vote on whos debate was better....any questions just ask......Our topic for JJ and Trav is is...


Overall who is flat out better:The Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin??
 

Travis40

Guest
The Rock easily

Here are some good reasons

1. His awesome mic skills and his funny promos with Coach and Lloyd, and his quotes with Lillian Garcia "The People's Package is closed for tonight" "Don't stare at the People's Buffet"

2. He's had some awesome matches, The Rock vs. Hogan WM X8, hell Rock carried the match and made Hogan look good, something Austin would've never been able to do w/ his bad knees, The Rock vs. Lesnar at SummerSlam 2002, just the feel of the match, it was one of the best matches of 2002, some people don't agree with me. Hell, Rock made Lesnar look great, not saying Lesnar sucks or anything (I think Lesnar's awesome) but he made Brock look a lot better than he ever had. The Rock vs. Undertaker NWO 2002, an awesome match, anytime you have Undertaker in the same ring as The Rock, it's gonna be a great match, I didn't like the ending where Taker grabbed the pipe and Flair came down and hit Taker to allow Rock to win. (The reasons I'm not listing his awesome matches against Austin is because it'll help JJ in his case against me)

3. His look, he looks like the perfect wrestler, when you look at him you can tell that he's charasmatic and very, very athletic, he's got the look of a wrestler, his movies might not have been the greatest ever (neither was Austin's) but Rock could make some good movies great and it was all by his charisma and his look.
 

JJdaBuckeye

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so now i defend Stone Cold? If so, here goes.
*Note, I never actually saw SCSA, just some videos of him*

Here are 3 points why I think Austin is better:

1. The ring: He was a great competitor, and could put on great matches no matter who he was facing. When he was a heel, he was amazing. Just looking at him in the ring, and looking at him in general, he just screamed "heel". the way he bobbed his head, the walk, the gestures, everything. His match with Bret Hart at WM 13 is PWI's Match of the year in 1997. He had the fued of the year on 2001. He was ranked 19 out of the best 500 singles wrestlers. He won the best heel award in 1996.

2. Charisma: He is, IMO, one of the best on the mic. Admittedly, he wasn't a Rock, but he was up there. His memorable phrases like "What?" and "Thats the Bottom Line Cause Stone Cold Said So" are remeber today, and even if you never watched him (like me), you still know those phrases, and still shout them at your friends. I can't think of someone who could have portrayed a heel better. Hell, the guy flips people off on TV! He IS/WAS the Attitude Era. I think of Attitude Era, i think of SCSA. I think of him cursing and flipping off and shouting. that was a HUGE part of the attitude era. HE was a huge part of the attitude era. He won the most charismatic award in 1997 and 1999.

3. He didn't sell out: Unlike The Rock, Stone Cold didn't sell WWE out to make movies. Yes he made movies, but he is still loyal to WWE. whether it is just a beer drinking contest with JBL (which was amazing, because thats what Austin was, a beer drinker), or talking about Benoit/McMahon, he comes back when asked, and performs like he always did. He is loyal to WWE, and will always be a draw.

Also, look at the awards this man has won:


* PWI Rookie of the Year award in 1990
* PWI Match of the Year award in 1997 - vs. Bret Hart (Submission match, 'WrestleMania 13', March 23, 1997)
* PWI Feud of the Year award in 1998 - vs. Vince McMahon
* PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year award in 1998
* PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 1998
* PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year on the annual PWI 500 list in 1998.
* PWI Feud of the Year award in 1999 - vs. Vince McMahon
* PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 1999
* PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year on the annual PWI 500 list in 1999.
* PWI Most Hated Wrestler of the Year award in 2001
* PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 2001
* PWI ranked him # 19 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the "PWI Years" in 2003.
* PWI ranked him # 50 of the 100 best tag teams of the "PWI Years" with Brian Pillman in 2003.

Those are only a few of the awards he has won.
 

MattHardyV1

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READ THE RULES MONKEY FUCKERS!!

If you dont understand go look at RJC vs Rell..theyres is completed
 

the dark knight

Guest
^^ALRIGHT COCKSQUEEZER. I JUST READ THE RULES NOW

*turns off caps*
 

Travis40

Guest
lol at the Cock Squezer thing, my Reply is up right now.
 

Travis40

Guest
lmao MHV1, here's my reply toward JJ's opening statement.

Nice job of using wikipedia for SCSA's Awards. Now here's The Rock's awards and title reigns

PWI Match of the Year award in 1999 – vs. Mankind (Royal Rumble, January 24, 1999)
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year award in 1999
PWI ranked him # 2 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year on the 2000 PWI 500 list
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year award in 2000
PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 2000
PWI Match of the Year award in 2002 – vs. Hollywood Hogan (WrestleMania X8, March 17, 2002)
PWI ranked him # 76 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the PWI Years in 2003.

IMO, the only reason that SCSA vs. Bret Hart at WM 13 was on the Match of the Year Award was because Bret Hart carried Austin through the later stages of the match. Sure SCSA was a great wrestler, but he had to be carried through most of his matches.

USWA Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Bart Sawyer
WCW World Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
WWF/E Championship (7 times)
WWF Intercontinental Championship (2 times)
WWF World Tag Team Championship (5 times) - with Mankind (3), The Undertaker (1), and Chris Jericho (1)
Royal Rumble (2000)
Sixth Triple Crown Champion


Wrestling Observer
Most Improved Wrestler award in 1998
Best Interviews award in 1999
Best Gimmick award in 1999
Most Charismatic Wrestler award in 1999
Best Box Office Draw award in 2000
Best Interviews award in 2000
Most Charismatic Wrestler award in 2000
Most Charismatic Wrestler award in 2001
Most Charismatic Wrestler award in 2002

There's Most Charismatic many times on there, also Most Improved and best Interviews/Promos, 18 overall championships ,and a Royal Rumble winner, he is just a great wrestler all around.

And let me point out parts of your opening statement.

Section 1. The Ring

Yes Stone Cold had tons of memorable matches, but when you think about it, who was he facing in those matches, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Mankind, The Rock, HHH, and many, many great wrestlers, but he wasn't anywhere close to the HHH's and Bret Hart's and Shawn Michaels' or The Rock's of wrestling. Yes he was an awesome heel in 2001 when he joined "The McMahon Butt Fuck Club" (yes it's a weird name, it's all that I could come up with in that era) but there was always something missing, he went from being a major face to major heel to major WWF face supporter, to WCW supporter, he just turned too many times in that year, but The Rock stayed put and only turned from Heel to Face in that year.

Section 2: Charisma

Yes SCSA had great promos and had tons of Charisma, but now that you see him in 2007 before WrestleMania, he just said the same old shit that you've always heard, he did the most expected things and that gets a little boring after doing that for 10 years, it just gets to predictable, The Rock on the other hand, kept changing things around in his promos, he was an awesome story teller on the mic and will always be, when people saw him on the Titantron earlier this year, everyone went apeshit, but Austin didn't get as much as a pop as Rock did becuase they liked Rock more than Austin IMO. And when you think Attitude Era, you think Rock, Austin, Kane, Taker, those 4 names in that order. You remember Rock for his awesome mic skills and ring work, you remember Austin for the Austin/McMahon fued, you remember Kane for the awesome gimmick, you remember Taker for the Ministry of Darkness and his eventual turn into the American Badass.

Section 3: He didn't sell out

Sure Austin didn't leave WWE, but Rock didn't "sell out", he just took an absence and he decided that he like being in movies more than he did wrestling. Hell, he gave everything to the WWE, he didn't have much more to give before he got stale like Austin did. Sure his match at WM XX w/ Foley against Evolution wasn't the greatest match ever, but it still delivered. The same match on that card that Austin was involved in, was considered the worst match in maybe WrestleMania history, and you think that Austin might have helped it, but no, he just made it worse and it showed everyone that Austin had became stale. Rock was starting to become injured and he left wrestling, that's what everyone does, I don't hear anyone bitching about John Cena "selling out" or Kane "selling out" or HHH "selling out" because of their respective movies. BTW, the Beer Drinking Contest against JBL was very bad, it was a short segment, and Austin was no where to be seen on WM 22. And one more thing, if you ask people "Who The Rock faced at WM X8?" People would say "Hogan" if you replaced The Rock with Austin, some people wouldn't know who Austin faced at WM 18, but the big SCSA fan in me knows that he faced Scott Hall.
 

JJdaBuckeye

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So.. i guess now i reply to what trav's opening statement?

Here are all of SCSA's

Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI Rookie of the Year award in 1990
PWI Match of the Year award in 1997 - vs. Bret Hart (Submission match, 'WrestleMania 13', March 23, 1997)
PWI Feud of the Year award in 1998 - vs. Vince McMahon
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year award in 1998
PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 1998
PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year on the annual PWI 500 list in 1998.
PWI Feud of the Year award in 1999 - vs. Vince McMahon
PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 1999
PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year on the annual PWI 500 list in 1999.
PWI Most Hated Wrestler of the Year award in 2001
PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 2001
PWI ranked him # 19 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the "PWI Years" in 2003.
PWI ranked him # 50 of the 100 best tag teams of the "PWI Years" with Brian Pillman in 2003.
Texas Wrestling Federation
TWF Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Rod Price
World Championship Wrestling
NWA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Brian Pillman1
WCW United States Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
WCW World Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Brian Pillman
WCW World Television Championship (2 times)
World Wrestling Federation
WWF Championship (6 times)
WWF Intercontinental Championship (2 times)
WWF World Tag Team Championship (4 times) - with Shawn Michaels (1), Dude Love (1), The Undertaker (1), and Triple H (1)
Million Dollar Championship (1 time)
King of the Ring (1996)
Royal Rumble (1997)
Royal Rumble (1998)
Royal Rumble (2001)
Fifth Triple Crown Champion
Wrestling Observer Newsletter
Rookie of the Year award in 1990
5 Star Match - with Rick Rude, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton and Larry Zbyszko vs. Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, and Dustin Rhodes (WarGames match, Wrestle War 1992, May 17, 1992)
Tag Team of the Year award in 1993 - with Brian Pillman
Best Heel award in 1996
Best Interviews award in 1996
Best Gimmick award in 1997
Best Interviews award in 1997
Feud of the Year award in 1997 - vs. Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Jim Neidhart, The British Bulldog and Brian Pillman
Match of the Year award in 1997- vs. Bret Hart (Submission match, WrestleMania 13, March 23, 1997)
Most Charismatic Wrestler award in 1997
5 Star Match: vs. Bret Hart (Submission match, WrestleMania 13, March 23, 1997)
Best Box Office Draw award in 1998
Best Gimmick award in 1998
Feud of the Year award in 1998 - vs. Vince McMahon
Wrestler of the Year award in 1998
Best Box Office Draw award in 1999
Best Interviews award in 1999
Feud of the Year in award 1999 - vs. Vince McMahon
Most Charismatic Wrestler award in 1999
Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 2000)
Best Brawler in award 2001
Best Interviews award in 2001
Best Non-Wrestler award in 2003

*Note- you said that SCSA had to be carried through his matches. Thats all your opinion. I could say Rock had to be carried, or i could say that Triple H is. Both of those are opinions. Like you said.

The Rock debuted in 1995. His first award (as found on Wikipedia), is 3 years later. And that is the Most improved Award. Stone Cold, debuted in 1990, and right off the bat won the Rookie of the Year Award.

1. Mic Skills- Y?es, the Rock had excellent mic skills. But he is a 3rd Generation star. He has wrestling running through his blood. Stone Cold, on the otherhand, doesn't. He learned the old fashioned way. His skills are his own, his charisma his own. He wasn't brought up to be a wrestler. He never had that kind of training as a kid.

2. Matches- You have way to many opinions in your statements. Every match you say Rock carried them, made them look good, or the matches wouldn't have been good without him.
-1. That is all opinion. There isn't a fact in that.
-2. Rock did have great and memorable matches. That true. Hogan vs. Rock, that was an amazing match. But saying that
The McMahon Butt Fuck Club. WTF?
Rock was a good heel, but Stone Cold was the top heel. there wasn't a bigger one. Rock was better as a face, and just couldn't compare with Stone Cold as a heel.

2. Chrisma- I bet you were'nt saying Stone Cold was predictable and boring during the Attitude Era. The Rock is one of the best overall on the mic, no arguing with that. But that is really all i remeber him for.
He won most charistmatic 3 years running, but when he won most charistmatic, Stone cold won best interviews. Rock was constantly pushed into promos, Stone cold had charisma, but he wasnt pushed into them as much as Rock. Rock was always doing a promo, and thats all i remember him for.

3. His look- Rock's look, he played football in college. he almost went pro. of course he is going to look athletic. But saying he LOOKS like he has a ton of charisma, is wrong. Cena looks like he could have a ton of charisma. The guy looks like he has a siezure coming out of backstage. Rock's look obviously didnt have anything to do with it, or else his Rocky Maivia gimmick wouldnt have been hated by the fans, and the fans wouldnt be wishing death on him. The management changed how Rock(y Maivia) was portrayed.

The management MADE the Rock. if it hadnt been for Vince and the creative team, the Rock would have stayed as Rocky Maivia, and would never have gotten anywhere. You can thank the management for making the Rock what he is
 

Travis40

Guest
In closing I would like to state many great, great Rock moments.

The Rock, This is Your Life

A great moment for wrestling, it's one of the best promos I've ever seen, it had comedy and it really, really served it's purpose. People will always remember that segment as one of the greatest wrestling promos of all time, the timing and comedy were just pure gold, you can't find any better than that, they tried to repeat sucess in 2004, as I'll state below, it was a great segment, but it'll never be better than the original.

Mick Foley, This is Your Life

Another great "This is Your Life" segment with Evolution (Batista, Flair, and Orton) ending the segment by beating the hell out of Rock and Sock Connection (Rock and Foley). Another great segment with classic facial expressions from Rock, he made these two segments great, I really like to go back and watch classic Rock segments and promos with Coach, Lillian, Foley and many others. Again, some great comedy in this segment along with the original version of "This is Your Life".

In closing, I would like to say that The Rock has never sold out, he didn't get all roided up and beat the hell out of his wife, he had AWESOME promos that are still being talked about today, and some I'll say, are the greatest promos ever (right behind the Mick Foley "Anti Hardcore" promos from the Original ECW) he was great as a Heel or Face, he could work the crowd, he could put on great matches, hell he made the Austin/Rock WM 19 match great, he carried Austin because Austin was in the hospital the night before and the morning of WM, Austin's knees and heart were not good that night and Rock helped Austin through that match and made it one of the best WrestleMania matches of all time. His match w/ Foley at RR 99 was one of the best also, in the I Quit match, people will always remember that as one of the most brutal matches of all time.
 

JJdaBuckeye

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Stone Cold was, in essance, the face of the Attitude Era.

The Attitude Era was, arguably, the greatest in WWE history. And who was the top heel, the man that made the Attitude Era? Stone Cold.

Whether he was drinking beer, cussing, or flipping people off. Thats what the Attitude Era is remebered for, and thats what Stone Cold did.

Even when Stone Cold had heart and knee problems, he still wrestled, as Trav said. Most of the wrestlers now-a-days would say "I can't, i'm injured." Stone Cold didn't. He went out there night after night, and gave it his all.

Stone Cold may not be the most charismatic, but he is definatly up there. Only somebody who had a HUGE amount of charisma, ex: Stone Cold, could cut a promo, say some lines, and then, to this day, have those lines remebered, and copied.

Hell, the top man in WWE now, John Cena. WWE is basically trying to push him to a level of Stone Cold. Cena is already high, but they're trying to get him onto the level of Stone Cold. You have to be dominat, if the top man in the bussiness is being pushed like you, and trying to be pushed to your level.
 

MattHardyV1

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Everyone VOTE for who you think had the better debate and proved thier point more...do NOT vote for someone just because you like the person they debated more...1st to 5 wins
 

Travis40

Guest
Uh.....anyone going to vote so we can go on to the 2nd round???