Your Turn, Smart Guy

[Fuji Vice]

So I've been toying with this idea for awhile and felt that this was the perfect time to get it off the ground. Basically what happens here is that I'll post a controversial statement to start us off and, provided you disagree with it, your job is to argue against it. This isn't a situation where there will be a winner or loser so much as one where you can all try and come together to look at the positive side of things. In a day and age where everyone is constantly griping about the product, perhaps this will be a breath of fresh air. Keep in mind, the statement I make each week is not necessarily my opinion, simply one that I feel will get your attention. So with that being said, here's this week's statement....

"Outside of his in-ring skills (selling, psychology, moveset), I really don't understand what the big deal about Dolph Ziggler is. I feel his mic work is simplistic and that he wouldn't be my first choice to hold a major title in WWE. What does this guy really have going for him (besides ring-work) that makes him a great PRO wrestler?"

Ready...set...go!

 

[Sabretooth]

Yeah the in ring skills are superb which is why he deserves it. People are sick and tired of wrestlers who are better in ring workers than Cena getting the short end of the stick. And besides its because they haven't let him break out on his own yet that we haven't even seen his full potential. He's never had a singles push with nobody backing him up. With his great in ring skills, when he goes solo he can show off his mic work so then he can enter his prime and be the truly great superstar that he is. Also maybe it's because of WWE's shit booking that has lowered your opinion of him?

 

[Fuji Vice]

Also maybe it's because of WWE's shit booking that has lowered your opinion of him?

Just to look at the opposite side of that, I still had a high opinion of Daniel Bryan when he was being booked like a chump.

Also, I disagree with the point about people being tired of seeing better in-ring workers than Cena getting the short end of the stick. Cena is arguably in the top five in-ring workers in the company and people are tired of how he's booked, not his supposed lack of wrestling skills.

 

[Sabretooth]

Just to look at the opposite side of that, I still had a high opinion of Daniel Bryan when he was being booked like a chump.

Also, I disagree with the point about people being tired of seeing better in-ring workers than Cena getting the short end of the stick. Cena is arguably in the top five in-ring workers in the company and people are tired of how he's booked, not his supposed lack of wrestling skills.

Yeah but fans think that he has bad in ring skills and you're not gonna tell me that he's a better wrestler than Dolph?

 

[Fuji Vice]

Yeah but fans think that he has bad in ring skills and you're not gonna tell me that he's a better wrestler than Dolph?

I guess it really depends on what you define a "wrestler" as. If you're strictly basing it on in-ring skills, then I'd give a slim edge to Dolph Ziggler. However, if you're looking at the whole package, including mic skills, ability to get the crowd invested, drawing power, then it's obviously Cena by a mile. Keep in mind that I'm not saying Dolph couldn't reach those levels one day and even eclipse Cena, I'm just saying he's not there right now.

Anyhow, let's hear from some other Pulse members on the statement posted in the OP.


Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

 

[Sabretooth]

I guess it really depends on what you define a "wrestler" as. If you're strictly basing it on in-ring skills, then I'd give a slim edge to Dolph Ziggler. However, if you're looking at the whole package, including mic skills, ability to get the crowd invested, drawing power, then it's obviously Cena by a mile. Keep in mind that I'm not saying Dolph couldn't reach those levels one day and even eclipse Cena, I'm just saying he's not there right now.

Anyhow, let's hear from some other Pulse members on the statement posted in the OP.


Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

But they're not posting :shifty:

 

[Fuji Vice]

But they're not posting :shifty:

They're just working up the courage to be cool like we are.
:yeah:

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

 

[Wangman Page]

I went to oz to get my courage but I can't defend dolph. I personally don't see what is so great about him. He bores me in the ring and in the Mic. The only thing he has is charisma and he got to where he is is only because they rubbed vickies xpac to heat to help establish him and he has not shown he can be the person to help carry the brand or the show unless he has a decent person to help with the match.

The one thing he does have is drive and stamina. He works his ass off to do well and can work numerous matches a night or ppv but he is nothing special. I think he could do better in the future as long as angles and storylines were well written to help him.

 

[Hoss]

Yeah I'm not going to defend Dolph. He's a pretty good wrestler and has a good look. His actions overall I think speak louder than his words, in the ring and as far as character goes. The clothes he wears, his taunts and even turning the belt backwards around his waist are the most over things he has going for him. He has never blown me away speaking on the mic, but I am impressed by the character itself and the different ways he find to exude and ego. Although based off of Monday and this recent Smackdown episode, he hasn't changed the way he has carried himself much. He still seems to behave like a midcarder if you ask me which does not serve him so well.

 

[Postman Dave]

"Outside of his in-ring skills (selling, psychology, moveset), I really don't understand what the big deal about Dolph Ziggler is. I feel his mic work is simplistic and that he wouldn't be my first choice to hold a major title in WWE. What does this guy really have going for him (besides ring-work) that makes him a great PRO wrestler?"

*cracks knuckles*

First of all, I'll give you the point about his mic work. It's serviceable, but it's far from where it needs to be for a main eventer (I can't think of a single memorable Ziggler promo off the top of my head). But mic work isn't the be all to end all as far as being a main event superstar goes. Look at Ryback. Has he been cutting money promos every week?

What gives Ziggler that x-factor to me is that he isn't johnny boots & tights like a lot of the roster are (sorry Barrett, Miz), he has a defined look and appearance, established enough that the last time he changed his hair, people rebelled against it. Back that up with being able to go in the ring, and having a good potential act going right now (with AJ & Big E beside him) and Dolph has all the tools necessary to at the very least warrant a test run at the top.

And finally, he may not be your first choice to hold a major belt, but at least he'd be different. Who's seriously clamouring for another title run from the likes of Cena, Sheamus, Orton, Show, Miz et al? I like CM Punk, but after 15 months as champ, even I want to see him kept away from a major title for a while. Dolph is different, Dolph is untested, Dolph as a major title holder has far more intrigue going for it than Orton title run number 12.

 

[Wangman Page]

First of all, I'll give you the point about his mic work. It's serviceable, but it's far from where it needs to be for a main eventer (I can't think of a single memorable Ziggler promo off the top of my head). But mic work isn't the be all to end all as far as being a main event superstar goes. Look at Ryback. Has he been cutting money promos every week?

Does Ryback need to cut money promos every week? Goldburg sure as hell didn't and he became one of the biggest stars of the Monday night wars by not talking hardly at all. Ryback is a cookie cutter Goldburg clone without a streak but with the aggression and quick destroying of those in his way.

What gives Ziggler that x-factor to me is that he isn't johnny boots & tights like a lot of the roster are (sorry Barrett, Miz), he has a defined look and appearance, established enough that the last time he changed his hair, people rebelled against it. Back that up with being able to go in the ring, and having a good potential act going right now (with AJ & Big E beside him) and Dolph has all the tools necessary to at the very least warrant a test run at the top.

Ziggler might not be the cut out look alike like Barrett or Miz but he resemble a few others like:







These guys looked nothing like the rest but couldn't get anything. Name one time in Zigglers carrier where he hasn't needed to have someone with him to get him over? He has had people with him his whole time. If he went solo he would fail. He has no interest outside of the internet just like Zack Ryder.

And finally, he may not be your first choice to hold a major belt, but at least he'd be different. Who's seriously clamouring for another title run from the likes of Cena, Sheamus, Orton, Show, Miz et al? I like CM Punk, but after 15 months as champ, even I want to see him kept away from a major title for a while. Dolph is different, Dolph is untested, Dolph as a major title holder has far more intrigue going for it than Orton title run number 12.

I may not want to see Cena or Orton with the title right now but putting it on someone who has zero ability to keep a crowd (outside of AJ being at the ring) or the people watching on the tv (I honestly change the channel when he or zack ryder are on because they bore me) I would rather Ryback get a run with the belt before Dolph Ziggler the crowds love him and he is by far more interesting even if he only has the belt for two months. I still want Daniel Bryan to get the belt again too.

Ziggler to me is like Ricky the Dragon Steamboat while a decent man in the ring who can make whomever he is in the ring with look decent he is not someone who you want to put you world title on because he cant carry the company. I am not saying Dolph is not good he just is not the person to carry the company and probably never will be. He is the John Morrison of this time. Decent, crappy mic skills, oozes charisma, but cant keep enough people interested to keep watching and if Dolph would leave right now who would really miss him?

 

[Postman Dave]

Does Ryback need to cut money promos every week? Goldburg sure as hell didn't and he became one of the biggest stars of the Monday night wars by not talking hardly at all. Ryback is a cookie cutter Goldburg clone without a streak but with the aggression and quick destroying of those in his way.

That was my point though. Mic work is great, but it isn't essential.

Ziggler might not be the cut out look alike like Barrett or Miz but he resemble a few others like:






These guys looked nothing like the rest but couldn't get anything. Name one time in Zigglers carrier where he hasn't needed to have someone with him to get him over? He has had people with him his whole time. If he went solo he would fail. He has no interest outside of the internet just like Zack Ryder.

C'mon now, they were from a time when everyone had some sort of wacky gimmick. Not all of them were gonna be hits.

As for having an entourage, he was progressing nicely in the mid card on Smackdown before teaming with Vickie, it was the promise he showed there that would've led WWE to do that. Having an entourage isn't detrimental to his career, it spotlights him by being the star of his group, and once he breaks away you've got an insta-angle set up right there (can Dolph get by on his own? Great early face material).

I may not want to see Cena or Orton with the title right now but putting it on someone who has zero ability to keep a crowd (outside of AJ being at the ring) or the people watching on the tv (I honestly change the channel when he or zack ryder are on because they bore me) I would rather Ryback get a run with the belt before Dolph Ziggler the crowds love him and he is by far more interesting even if he only has the belt for two months. I still want Daniel Bryan to get the belt again too.

Ziggler to me is like Ricky the Dragon Steamboat while a decent man in the ring who can make whomever he is in the ring with look decent he is not someone who you want to put you world title on because he cant carry the company. I am not saying Dolph is not good he just is not the person to carry the company and probably never will be. He is the John Morrison of this time. Decent, crappy mic skills, oozes charisma, but cant keep enough people interested to keep watching and if Dolph would leave right now who would really miss him?

Ryback is a good choice, but he has a short shelf life. This type of gimmick can only run for so long before it gets either boring, or he has to suffer one loss too many. Ziggler has taken loss after loss and remained relevant, he's definitely the safer long term investment.

TBF, the argument isn't really about being the face of the company, because that's another argument entirely (although on that tangent, TNA & CHIKARA have both shown you can run a wrestling company successfully without having one defining "star", and rather a collection of talent. I believe WWE are heading that way once Cena goes and will rely on the WWE brand rather than one guy). Dolph can still be an upper mid card/main event guy without being the WWE poster boy. Steamboat was still a very big deal, so let's not act like his position was a bad one.

 

[Wangman Page]

As for having an entourage, he was progressing nicely in the mid card on Smackdown before teaming with Vickie, it was the promise he showed there that would've led WWE to do that. Having an entourage isn't detrimental to his career, it spotlights him by being the star of his group, and once he breaks away you've got an insta-angle set up right there (can Dolph get by on his own? Great early face material).

His entourage isn't the end all be all that it looks like but I do agree on the instant angle that he has but also think he would not be where he is without the Vickie X-pac heat she gets and I remember nothing that he has done solo honestly. I remember Spirit Squad, Vicke Ziggler, and now Ziggler, AJ, and Big E. I want to see him do well on his own but right now I don't think he could do it and feel like he would flounder.

Ryback is a good choice, but he has a short shelf life. This type of gimmick can only run for so long before it gets either boring, or he has to suffer one loss too many. Ziggler has taken loss after loss and remained relevant, he's definitely the safer long term investment.

I agree completely with the Ryback statement. I also want Mark Henry to get a title again too. Ziggler is only relevant still due to being with Vickie and AJ.

TBF, the argument isn't really about being the face of the company, because that's another argument entirely (although on that tangent, TNA & CHIKARA have both shown you can run a wrestling company successfully without having one defining "star", and rather a collection of talent. I believe WWE are heading that way once Cena goes and will rely on the WWE brand rather than one guy). Dolph can still be an upper mid card/main event guy without being the WWE poster boy. Steamboat was still a very big deal, so let's not act like his position was a bad one.

I agree with that but they could also make another great superstar in the ilk of Hogan and Cena, but think they would be better off with getting a couple of others in that role too.

Yes Steamboat was a big deal and I really enjoyed all of his matches and felt he had his place. This is also the place I Ziggler that he can help people have great matches and make memorable matches but not someone who can be the focal point of a company.

 

[Hoss]

To comment on Ziggler's look, he was obviously modeled to look like Mr. Perfect and has an arsenal very much like his. He has taken it and ran with it though, I give him that and I agree he has the most original look of any non-gimmick wrestler on the roster besides maybe Daniel Bryan.

 

[Fuji Vice]

Dolph is different, Dolph is untested, Dolph as a major title holder has far more intrigue going for it than Orton title run number 12.

Provided of course that they actually let him have a run with the title and don't just hot-shot it onto someone else. I doubt they'll do that mind you, there's a few fresh feuds a heel champ can have over on SD once he's done with Del Rio. I agree with your point though, I don't think there's many out there who'd rather have Orton as champ.

Ziggler to me is like Ricky the Dragon Steamboat while a decent man in the ring who can make whomever he is in the ring with look decent he is not someone who you want to put you world title on because he cant carry the company.

That's pretty much how I've always seen Dolph, a guy that's guaranteed to make others look good but not THE guy in the company. However, even though I also think he can't carry the company, I'm willing to give him (and creative) a chance to prove me wrong. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong but if not at least we can always gloat and say we were right. :

Mic work is great, but it isn't essential.

For Ryback it's not essential, for Ziggler it is. Since he can't let his actions do all the talking, he's going to have to get way better at selling himself in promos. Talking about being a show-off and stealing people's girlfriends (which I think is a horrible catchphrase since hardly any wrestling fans have girlfriends) isn't going to get it done.

I believe WWE are heading that way once Cena goes and will rely on the WWE brand rather than one guy).

That's the move that they should do, but I feel they'll always be looking for the next big star to "carry" the company at the same time. Personally a shift to that way of thinking would ensure their longer term viability since they wouldn't have to rely on one person, but I'm not sure they're willing to do that just yet.

He has taken it and ran with it though, I give him that and I agree he has the most original look of any non-gimmick wrestler on the roster besides maybe Daniel Bryan.

I wouldn't say his look is entirely original, but at the very least he does a good job playing his character. Now he just needs some more depth.