Round 4: Quadrant 1 Matchup 1

[Zen]

So the all mighty Zenaku returns to post...

And he doesn't go to town on the Angle fans... Utter, utter disappointment! However, Cena is now in the lead with 10 to 9... This is good.

I am ill at the moment and have a few papers to write in real life, so I can't bother risking my mental health by engaging this sort of severe Angle markdom, it would only give me a more severe headache. I addressed them briefly at start of my last post, that is all they will be getting from me, for now.lol

 

[PHX]

The fact that Kurt Angle is this close to winning is an utter disgrace and indicative of a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes wrestling on the part of the people who participated in this thread. Utterly shameful. Any comparison between Cena and Angle that places Angle in the same league or even the same planet as far as abilities are concerned is laughable, in other words, Cena is galaxies ahead of Angle at this point in regards to anything wrestling related.

EffectsofRaven, in particular, has done an excellent service to the discourse by utterly demolishing the Angle related markdom and nonsense.



You are right, that Cena's legacy as a result of his reactions is rather unique, however, he is not the first person to get these sort of reactions. Other top stars, such as Hogan, and Rocky have gotten these sort of reactions before. What makes Cena unique, unlike his predecessors, is that, the WWE is actually PERFECTLY happy with his reactions. They actually learned to accept it and use it to their advantage. You have to understand why Cena gets the reactions he does. At the end of the day regardless of whether you come to boo him or cheer him, the WWE makes money and they are perfectly aware of it. It is all part of a generational conflict. It is about the leftover Attitude Era fans VS the New Fans. No matter what Cena does, the new fans will cheer him, and this much is evident when Cena goes against most current generation wrestlers -- he gets the majority of the cheers.If Cena however, goes against an old school wrestler(HHH, Taker, HBK, Jericho etc.) he gets booed because of the Attitude Era fans.

Cena isn't the problem, it is just the nature of the product. If Cena became a heel, and adopted the values of the Attitude Era crowd, he would earn their cheers and favour but the New Generation would boo him and we are back to 50/50. The problem is that the WWE is going through a generational change, similar to the early 90's when Hogan got boos(see Royal Rumble 92 as an example) and cheers, because the fans really loved the Hulkster but had grown up to a point where they wanted to move past the cartoony 80's stuff, so you got the 50-50 split. The same stuff is happening here.

In his current capacity, in this generation, Cena is a great avatar of the generational shift. Remember, after the WWE had to go through a epochal change after the collapse of the Attitude Era, so naturally, there is some conflict between the fans and the product. There is nothing wrong with this. Cena still gets the an extremely loud reaction(it isn't whether you get positive or negative reactions but that you get them, which is indicative of the fans caring), does fairly well for the ratings, and merchandise and the additional PR stuff. There really isn't a problem, as some smarks would like to pretend with regards to his role and the reactions it receives.

Yeah thats pretty much what I meant that he is the first one it's happened to and they rolled with it rather than panic and turn him heel. Don't think WWE purposely wanted it to happen as they probably originally rather have him get all the crowd support like the likes of Rock and Austin but didn't and obviously didn't//don't wanna make him heel because of the merch he moves and money he brings in so kind of fell into this rare situation that has worked out.

 

[Zen]

Yeah thats pretty much what I meant that he is the first one it's happened to and they rolled with it rather than panic and turn him heel. Don't think WWE purposely wanted it to happen as they probably originally rather have him get all the crowd support like the likes of Rock and Austin but didn't and obviously didn't//don't wanna make him heel because of the merch he moves and money he brings in so kind of fell into this rare situation that has worked out.

Yup, the original plan was of course for Cena to be a traditional face that enjoys 90%+ fan support but when that didn't happen(although in 2004-2005 he was super over, though post-2005 the mixed reactions started), instead of trying to steer the course back to Plan A, they went with Plan B; basically giving him the ball to run with it. For the most part it has been a huge success. Now a days, the WWE openly acknowledges the mixed reactions and basically does a self-parody of it, which basically indicates they are perfectly fine with it. In the early 90's when this happened with Hogan, they really panicked and went to great lengths to pretend that everything was fine and that Hogan was still popular(even though he was getting mixed reactions). So comparing the two, there is a contrast and that is what makes Cena rather unique.

 

[Slim]

Well you also have to take into comparison the time frame in when the two things happened. Because back then it was completely new territory and everything was riding on the success of Hogan. They tried to give it to Lex (anyone remember the Lex Express) and man alive did that ever bomb. But Hogan was the face of the WWF so when he was getting those mixed reactions it was like oh no what do we do now? He is all we have. Even though they had others but Hogan was it. Then it was new territory, new everything so they were gonna panic.

Now we are years upon years past that and here we are with Cena. They've seen what other people can do like Rock. He came in as the happy go lucky always smiling face, fans turned on him, they turned him heel, he went super heel and it worked. He eventually started turning face... then skip years and we have Hollywood. Cocky Rock that is heelish but still faceish so he gets cheered and everything. You had Austin that was the blue collar working face that did heel stuff but still would get cheered and stuff.

So its like they knew not to panic and that things would work out somehow and in someway. So they had a lot to go from with this whole occurrence with Cena being booed like crazy... specially Mania 22 in Chitown and ECW One Night Stand 2, pretty much that entire year for Cena. But yeah... there is a vast ocean between the Hogan time and the Cena time in knowing how to deal with this sorta thing so they should know how to handle this sorta thing better... and they are. It just took a long time.

 

[Zen]

Well you also have to take into comparison the time frame in when the two things happened. Because back then it was completely new territory and everything was riding on the success of Hogan. They tried to give it to Lex (anyone remember the Lex Express) and man alive did that ever bomb. But Hogan was the face of the WWF so when he was getting those mixed reactions it was like oh no what do we do now? He is all we have. Even though they had others but Hogan was it. Then it was new territory, new everything so they were gonna panic.

Of course. When Cena around, Vince had been in the business for nearly 30 years and they were much better prepared for these kind of things and had much more experience to rely on.Your other examples are also spot on.


Hogan was basically Vince's one hit wonder, naturally when he started faultering, Vince was in self-doubt mode(as anyone would be) because Hogan was basically all they had at that point. When 2005 came around, the WWE had been in rebuilding mode for 4-5 years(after the collapse of the Attitude Era) so they didn't have much to lose(they still had Hunter at top). So when they started to take the risk with Cena, even if it ended up being utterly dismal, it wouldn't have mattered too much, but if succeeded(which it did) they had everything to gain, so we ended up with what we did.

 

[The New F'n Show]

I'm with Zen here and to a point effects as Cena owns Angle as a champion. However I do think you are going overboard on the Angle hate. I agree his crazy use of finishers effects his match flow so no argument there, Cena is nowhere near as talented an athlete as Angle is but he paces a match better even if it is really predicable what he will do the outcome when he hits a finisher is still in doubt on occasion (see Punk matches). Angle was good on the stick and is quality in the ring though and I don't feel he is a below average worker that is ludicrous. Overrated? Slightly yes, but not to the level your making it seem.

 

[Zen]

However I do think you are going overboard on the Angle hate.

My statements about Angle are ones that are objective(whether you agree with them or not), they are not emotional statements, so by definition, there is no hate involved.

I agree his crazy use of finishers effects his match flow so no argument there, Cena is nowhere near as talented an athlete as Angle is but he paces a match better even if it is really predicable what he will do the outcome when he hits a finisher is still in doubt on occasion (see Punk matches). Angle was good on the stick and is quality in the ring though and I don't feel he is a below average worker that is ludicrous. Overrated? Slightly yes, but not to the level your making it seem.

Utterly false. Cena is a far far better seller than Angle. Everything from his bumping, his facial expressions, the way he sells other people's moves or gets them over, he does better. He is a FAR better brawler than Angle, has better pacing, and knows how to place comeback segments(which are ridiculously important for face wrestlers) very well. There isn't really any environment in the ring that he can't handle(as evidence by the wide variety of matches he has had done over the years). He knows how to execute a story in the ring perfectly, and with variety as well. He has built his finishers up quite well, using them properly(as opposed to Angle who whored them out in EVERY match for basically years in TNA), and his sense of drama is great. Cena has great stamina, charisma, mic skills, appeal, and drawing power. He has had a lot of great-classic matches on PPV, being consistently good and great for years now, with all sorts of opponents, doing dozens of carry jobs on the way. In short, Cena is a gem.

As opposed to Angle? What exactly has he done? He was great for about 2-3 years in WWE before we learned that he wasn't really great at all but that the WWE had actually masked his weaknesses(which is what the WWE does best) by pairing him with great talents who basically covered his ass. When Angle was taken away from the WWE hype machine and the WWE wrestling system(which covers its wrestlers and promotes them well) his weaknesses and faults were made glaring clear. Since then, for basically, 5 years, he has been in TNA basically wrestling the SAME match. The same awful match, might I add. Once in a while he does something decent(see his match with Wolf) but usually it is god darn awful. His selling isn't anything outstanding, his match structure is awful consisting of basically doing suplexes and finishers to get a cheap rise out of the crowd(this is definitely a sign of a poor wrestler), his offence is completely mismanaged, his pacing is off the mark. He spent 2-3 years where every single match, every single guy on the TNA kicked out of his finishers, and he kicked out of theirs(basically doing a double burry job). Thats attrocious and completely anti-dramatic.

For a comparison, take a look at WM 25 Taker/Shawn -- when Shawn kicked out of the tombstone it was a complete OMG! moment because *no one* kicks out of the tombstone, so when someone finally does it on a rare occasion it means something and it is dramatic. That is wrestling psychology 101 on how to build drama, and yet, it seems to elude Angle at every step. When Angle's opponents kick out of his moves, it means nothing because he lets EVERYONE kick out, so there is no drama because you know what to expect. Like I said, there is simply no comparison. Angle is basically in auto-pilot mode, he comes out, runs the same mismanaged match structure every single time. And NO, just because it has a lot of what are considered to be "technical" moves, does not give him a pass or make his matches great. It is simply atrocious.

Angles just got worse and worse over the last 5 years, whereas Cena has not only vastly improved in all respects but he has been for the most part, completely outstanding in 90% of his PPV and big time matches, with all sorts of opponents. There really is no comparison. When I say Cena is miles ahead of Angle, it isn't some emotional rant, it is simply applying objective wrestling standards -- which if you do, there is no sensible conclusion which can be drawn, other than Cena being far superior to Angle in every respect. Name me one objective aspect of wrestling at which Angle is better than Cena -- you can't. Whether it is mic work, character portrayal, selling, striking, punching, offence, getting other people over, selling merchandise or PPVs, pacing, match structure, being consistently good, being good with a variety of opponents and in a variety of matches, in ring psychology, facial expressions,face-in-peril segments etc. -- you know all the things that are objective factors as far as wrestling is concerned -- Cena does every single thing better than Angle.

 

[The New F'n Show]

My statements about Angle are ones that are objective(whether you agree with them or not), they are not emotional statements, so by definition, there is no hate involved.

That comment was at effects not you. You have a solid argument that I respect. Not sure I'd say Cena is better than Angle at everything but you make solid points. As far as the actual points going to sleep so not going into much detail but I agree on the finisher thing and Cena does sell well also, though I'd argue Angle isn't bad at it. Cena has brawling for sure, Angle looks fake when he does it. Angle has just had a few classics in WWE. Was that because of who he was working with? Very possible but I always give both guys credit. That's why I've never been a Cena hater like a lot of people who always stated he only had a good match because of the other guy, that is utterly false. I felt his matches in TNA with Joe and Cage were solid and obviously the Wolfe one's as well. Other than the slightly overrated cage match with Anderson, it was good but not THAT good, he hasn't done much in years. I just think TNA has killed his reputation a little too much. Did WWE protect him? In short yes but he rewarded them with quality work in and out of the ring. He had some great promos. I would argue WWE protects Cena as well but that's not my point. I'm not hear to bash Cena, I respect the hell out of the guy, I just think Angle is solid. Better overall though No, he is not. As far as my point being false, Cena is not a great athlete, he is just very smart and dedicated and thus makes up for it with work ethic.

 

[Troy]

Definitely John Cena here. Angle had a good title reign or two early on but his later title reigns weren't that good. Cena delivers again and again year in and year out as champion. Cena isn't universally liked but he has done a hell of a job as champion over the past 5-6 years.

 

[The New F'n Show]

Cena wins.