Round 4: Quadrant 1 Matchup 1

[The New F'n Show]

Kurt Angle

Kurt Angle won the WWE title from the Rock on October 22nd 2000 at No Mercy. He lost the title back on February 25th 2001 at No Way Out. He won the WCW title from Booker T on the July 26th 2001 Smackdown. He lost the title back on the July 30th 2001 Raw. He won his 2nd WWE title from Steve Austin on September 23rd 2001 at Unforgiven. He lost the title back on the October 8th 2001 Raw. He won his third WWE title from The Big Show on December 15th 2002 at Armageddon. He lost the title to Brock Lesnar on March 30th 2003 at Wrestlemania. He won it back on July 27th 2003 at Vengeance in a Triple Threat Match also involving the Big Show. He lost it back to Lesnar on the September 18th 2003 Smackdown in a 60 Minute Iron Man Match. He won the World Title on the January 13th 2006 Smackdown in a Battle Royal. He lost the title Rey Mysterio in a triple threat match also involving Randy Orton on April 2nd 2007 at Wrestlemania. He won the Inaugural TNA title in a King of The Mountain Match against Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Christian Cage, and Chris Harris on June 17th 2007 at Slammiversary. He lost the title to Sting on October 14th 2007 at Bound For Glory. He won the title back from Sting on the October 25th 2007 Impact. He lost the title to Samoa Joe on April 13th 2008 at Lockdown. He won his third TNA Title from Mick Foley in a King of The Mountain Match also including AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, and Jeff Jarrett on June 21st 2009 at Slammiversary. He lost the title to AJ Styles on September 20th 2009 at No Surrender. He won his fourth TNA title from Sting on August 7th 2011 at Hardcore Justice. He lost the title to James Storm on the October 20th 2011 Impact.

John Cena

John Cena won the WWE Title from JBL on April 3rd 2005 at Wrestlemania. He lost the title to Edge on January 8th 2006 at New Year’s Revolution. He won it back on January 29th 2006 at Royal Rumble. He lost the title to Rob Van Dam on June 11th 2006 at One Night Stand in an Extreme Rules Match. He won his third title from Edge on September 17th 2006 at Unforgiven in a TLC match. He vacated the title due to injury on the October 2nd 2007 ECW. He won his first World Title from Chris Jericho on November 23rd 2008 at Survivor Series. He lost the World Title to Edge on February 15th 2009 at No Way Out in an Elimination Chamber match also involving Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio, Mike Knox, and Kane. He won his second World Title from Edge on April 5th 2009 at Wrestlemania in a Triple Threat Match also involving The Big Show. He lost the title back to Edge on April 26th 2009 at Backlash in a Last Man Standing Match. He won his fourth WWE title from Randy Orton on September 13th 2009 at Breaking Point in an I Quit Match. He lost the title back on October 4th 2009 at Hell in a Cell in a Hell in a Cell Match. He won it back on October 25th 2009 at Bragging Rights on a 60 Minute Anything Goes Iron Man Match. He lost the title to Sheamus on December 13th 2009 at TLC in a Tables Match. He won it back on February 21st 2010 at Elimination Chamber in an Elimination Chamber match also involving Triple H, Randy Orton, Ted DiBiase and Kofi Kingston. He lost the title to Batista immediately afterword. He won the title back on Match 28th 2010 at Wrestlemania. He lost the title to Sheamus on June 20th 2010 at Fatal 4-Way in a match also involving Edge and Randy Orton. He won his 8th title from The Miz on May 1st 2011 at Extreme Rules in a Triple Threat Steel Cage Matrch also involving John Morrison. He lost the title to CM Punk on July 17th 2011 at Money in The Bank. He won his 9th WWE title from Rey Mysterio on the july 25th 2011 Raw making him a co-champion with Punk. He lost the title to Punk in a unification match on August 14th 2011 at Money in The Bank. He won his 10th WWE title from Alberto Del Rio on September 18th 2011 at Night of Champions. He lost the title back on October 2nd 2011 at Hell in a Cell in a triple threat Hell in a Cell Match also involving CM Punk.

 

[Andrew]

Kurt Angle is a better Champion then Cena. That's my vote.

 

[Kiffy Lube]

Defying an entire era as champion like Cena has is not something just anybody can do. Maybe, Angle could but now he's wasting what is left of his career with TNA title scraps. So Cena here for me, this should be pretty damn close as well.

 

[Deuce]

Cena is losing to Kurt Angle? Conspiracy.... Cena here for sure.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

If Cena loses to Angle, this will possibly prove this tournament should NOT continue any further.

What has Angle ACTUALLY done? I mean c'mon, the man is the most heavily booked wrestler in the history of this sport, I don't even think Shawn Michaels was as heavily protected, atleast Shawn Michaels was a TOP guy at some point in his career, albeit for eighteen months, Kurt Angle was never the top guy, will never be the top guy yet he's beating one of the best wrestlers in recently memories, the top drawing champion since SCSA... A man that defines an era, truly the WWE hype machine and their smartass booking techniques have proven to work on the wrestlingsmarks community.

Kinda funny how Angle even managed to get past the first round, atleast the detail with Benoit was he was one of the GOATs in the ring, and his reign actually meant alot to a lot of people - Angle is just overrated, overhyped and pretty darn awful without WWE's best talent in the ring with him.

SHOCKING

 

[Tapout]

No way in HELL should Cena lose to Angle. Cena is what turned me into the huge wrestling fan I am today. His reign in 2007 made me a fan for life. I know it's said a lot, but Cena is my Hogan. He is the greatest thing to ever happen to professional wrestling in my opinion. And is still to this day maybe the most underrated superstar of all time.

 

[Keith]

Yeah silly us for voting for someone who is maybe the best all round talent of his era. And the fact that Angle is supposedly wasting his time in TNA, makes his work even more impressive as he continues to shine even surrounded by such incomputence. For my money he is one of the greatest workers ever and everything a champion should be, Cena is no where near that level "Oh Its True, Its Damn True!"

 

[EffectsofRaven]

Yeah silly us for voting for someone who is maybe the best all round talent of his era. And the fact that Angle is supposedly wasting his time in TNA, makes his work even more impressive as he continues to shine even surrounded by such incomputence. For my money he is one of the greatest workers ever and everything a champion should be, Cena is no where near that level "Oh Its True, Its Damn True!"

Quit being a Angle Mark and actually be subjective for once...

There is ZERO evidence supporting to Angle being anything but below average wrestler, athletically you can't fault him, nor can you fault the flow of his moves... But he is damn near awful at EVERYTHING which makes a good champion, and a good wrestler... His match structures are terrible, his theory to a good match is whoring out his own so called finishers... He isn't even a draw, he hasn't made a single bit of difference to TNA's ratings nor their PPV buyrates, you're blinded by your own markism for a terrible wrestler/ the WWE Hypemachine.

LOLmarks.

 

[Kingslayer]

Angle, please. Cena is a good champion, but, ummmm.....NO.

 

[PHX]

Cena's title reigns love them or hate them will still be talked about 10 years from now. Angle's not as much. Not to mention for somebody who "can't wrestle" Cena has had his fair share of classic and great matches through out his career. He should win here.

 

[Keith]

No they won't for the simple reason he has had too many in too short a space of time, and being champion has not made Cena anymore over than he would have been anyway. Angle's title reigns mattered because they were spaced out and came at important periods in his career. Where as Cena made it all about himself and not the title, Angle got accross the importance of him winning the title.

 

[Keith]

Quit being a Angle Mark and actually be subjective for once...

There is ZERO evidence supporting to Angle being anything but below average wrestler, athletically you can't fault him, nor can you fault the flow of his moves... But he is damn near awful at EVERYTHING which makes a good champion, and a good wrestler... His match structures are terrible, his theory to a good match is whoring out his own so called finishers... He isn't even a draw, he hasn't made a single bit of difference to TNA's ratings nor their PPV buyrates, you're blinded by your own markism for a terrible wrestler/ the WWE Hypemachine.

LOLmarks.

Right now your turn LOL.

1. Critics and fans a like priase Angle as being the best of his era or certainly one of them, are you really telling me that all those people are 'marks'? Besides I just a really big Angle fan if in your eyes that makes me a mark then so be it.

2. Now this thing about him prosessing none of the quaities of a true champion, well I would define anyone to say that Kurt is not good on the mic. He was constantly involved in some of the most entertaining and inventive promo/segments during his WWF/WWE days and while he has not had as much of a chance to show that side in TNA he has still remained very strong in that area. Also like a true great like Ric Flair (in his prime) Angle is able to do different kinds of promos depending on what is called for, he is also very intense, but can play the cocky heel too for example. He has a great look, has the perfect grasp of Psychoigal, knows how to pace a match, is able to carry lesser talents (see his work with Morgan in TNA for a recent example) and still to this day puts on five star matches. Yes I would say all that makes a great champion. The fact that WWE didn't always give him the reigns he deserved is not his fault.

3. As for being a draw? Well that is hard to prove either way because he entered WWE in the middle of their last big boom period. So joining the roster at such a hot time it is very hard to tell if he actually made any difference or not to the ratings, certainly think he added something they had not had for awhile which is a good old fashioned heel, and he sure seemed to draw a lot of heat judging by the crowds reaction. Now the decline in the mid-2000's which is still going on now would have happened anyway and there are lots factors, so again I am not sure you can judge too much on that, but he sure carried WWE a lot during that period, and I would say that his feud with Shawn Michaels was one of the big draws in 2005. It is not really fair to point towards the lack of difference he has made to TNA, because the way that company has gone no one has been able to make a difference, although you would have to say that thanks to people like Angle more people know of the TNA product now than when he joined.

4. It is also a mirth that his complete TNA run meant nothing, when he first arrived there they were still going strong and his feud with Samoa Joe was awesome and simply put one of the finest of the last decade.

5. As for whoreing out his moves as you put it, well surely building a match around important moves is simple wrestling logic which has worked countless times down the years and is such a big part of getting a talent over.

 

[EffectsofRaven]

Prepare for a long read Keith.

Right now your turn LOL.

1. Critics and fans a like priase Angle as being the best of his era or certainly one of them, are you really telling me that all those people are 'marks'? Besides I just a really big Angle fan if in your eyes that makes me a mark then so be it.

Being a mark for Kurt Angle, no ness about being a general mark however, critics like Dave Metlzer are marks for matches which contain far more action than actual wrestling, baring in mind, to be a good wrestler, you got have to structure, diveristy in your style, ability to sell and deliver moves, knowing how to pace your matches, placement of spots, and most important one of the lot, telling a compelling storyline, Angle lacks much of this... His ability to sell moves is decent but as I said, he's completely whored out his finishing move to the point, is it a buyable finisher, no? So he's failed to sell his own move as a finisher, which is terrible.

2. Now this thing about him prosessing none of the quaities of a true champion, well I would define anyone to say that Kurt is not good on the mic. He was constantly involved in some of the most entertaining and inventive promo/segments during his WWF/WWE days and while he has not had as much of a chance to show that side in TNA he has still remained very strong in that area. Also like a true great like Ric Flair (in his prime) Angle is able to do different kinds of promos depending on what is called for, he is also very intense, but can play the cocky heel too for example. He has a great look, has the perfect grasp of Psychoigal, knows how to pace a match, is able to carry lesser talents (see his work with Morgan in TNA for a recent example) and still to this day puts on five star matches. Yes I would say all that makes a great champion. The fact that WWE didn't always give him the reigns he deserved is not his fault.

Being good on the microphone is important aspect of wrestling, particularly in the American style of the 'sport' but generally, a man can be a great/ fantastic wrestler without the best microphone work, look at the likes Ultimo Dragon, Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit, numerous Japanese and Luchadors, hell even WWE biggest attraction ever Andre the Giant was a fantastic worker and wrestler but damn near awful on the microphone but yet he was sellable due to Vince's prowess. Which proves Angle was incredibly well protected in WWE, by putting him against opponents with good microphone skills or couple him with guys who could work the microphone, Paul Heyman being the obvious man. Would I say Angle is entertain, yes for different reasons to being a great wrestler, he lacks compelling story telling compared to likes of the GOATS, but in no sense of the word is a psychological wrestler, far from it, if you want Psychology Raven is a prime example of Psychological prowess in the ring, Mick Foley, Undertaker are various other examples - Angle fails to deliver any form of buyable Psychology. You mention Angle's pacement of matches as good, not really, his matches are extremely rushed after ten minutes, the who can top this mentality kicks in and thus far finishers and big spots with various kick outs and no selling, almost leave Angle scrambling to get a finishing spot with much buyability. Carrying lesser talent isn't Angle area neither, infact, the likes of Desmond Wolfe and Samoa Joe are the only two in TNA where Angle has been able to look good and put a 'Five Star Match', if we're going by the critics, Angle has failed to wow the critics in TNA, I missed out Jeff Jarrett earlier, but that is by far only other match where he's been on top game because Jeff Jarrett is a terrific mid-carder worker and should be higher than Angle in this type of tournament.,..

3. As for being a draw? Well that is hard to prove either way because he entered WWE in the middle of their last big boom period. So joining the roster at such a hot time it is very hard to tell if he actually made any difference or not to the ratings, certainly think he added something they had not had for awhile which is a good old fashioned heel, and he sure seemed to draw a lot of heat judging by the crowds reaction. Now the decline in the mid-2000's which is still going on now would have happened anyway and there are lots factors, so again I am not sure you can judge too much on that, but he sure carried WWE a lot during that period, and I would say that his feud with Shawn Michaels was one of the big draws in 2005. It is not really fair to point towards the lack of difference he has made to TNA, because the way that company has gone no one has been able to make a difference, although you would have to say that thanks to people like Angle more people know of the TNA product now than when he joined.

Of course it's hard to define a draw in a hot era such as the Attitude Era, but it's also easy to work out whether he's a top draw by the way TNA ratings have gone under him, not far at all to be honest - barely changed one bit, the thought of Kurt Angle being a draw is laughable at best without WWE Hyping him to max and placing him against various Top Drawing Opponents, in fact Angle got TNA know through his name value, not through any drawing; It bit like if Kane jumped ship, Kane has zero ability to draw but has a huge degree of name value so it would mean some interest due to the name value but not much else... His feud with Shawn Michaels was not a huge drawing point of 2005, Batista and Cena were the huge drawers of 2005, HBK is the worse drawing champion of all time, it was a matter of the WWE hyping the match up to brink, they had one good match, one I rather enjoy myself but that's it, WWE HypeMachine plays a huge role in drawers but the likes of Austin, Hogan and Cena can carry their ability to draw across companies, HBK and Angle couldn't, they are too dependant on the WWE Hype machine and Angle's TNA run is evident of this.

4. It is also a mirth that his complete TNA run meant nothing, when he first arrived there they were still going strong and his feud with Samoa Joe was awesome and simply put one of the finest of the last decade.

Generally, when someone big debuts, of course it's going to generate interest, and Samoa Joe was TNA's hottest property at the time, so his involvement with Angle sure did help spike interest and Samoa Joe during 2004 to 2008 was possibly the best damn wrestler in the planet, so naturally if the most protected wrestler in the industry goes against the best in the industry at the point, you are going to get a good result because of Joe's strong ability to plan out a match with great execution but since them, Angle has fallen into mediocrity of having to try to put talent over by saying to them "Hey kick out my finisher, it's gonna help you" when in reality, because EVERYONE does kick out of his finisher, it makes no difference, infact it probably damaged Wolfe/ Angle and AJ/ Angle because kicking out of the Angle Slam meant nothing, thus far leading to a lack of belief that either man was special.

5. As for whoreing out his moves as you put it, well surely building a match around important moves is simple wrestling logic which has worked countless times down the years and is such a big part of getting a talent over.

Most defo in creating a buyable opponent when they start surviving a big guys move, but when everyone survives it, then the effect you are looking at it is pretty much redunant; proof is with Desmond Wolfe, by the time Wolfe and Angle square up in the ring, I think Abyss, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Matt Morgan, Kaz, Christian, Black Reign and various others mid to top card talent had survive the infamous Angle Slam, when Wolfe did it, it was nothing special, you lose the effect of putting the guy over by kicking out a move everyone has kicked out of. Not many kick out to the RKO till this day, so when a guy kicks out of the RKO, it's an "OH FUCK!" moment. As for structuring a match, the flurry of finishers at the end of match is Angle's solution to any match which goes beyond the 10 minute mark, where as WWE only do it in HUGE matches on HUGE pay-per-views, particularly Wrestlemania is the only time you see more than two finisher kick outs, Angle does it regularly on PPVs, denying the entire logic of wrestling a match, a finisher is a finishing moment to a match in bog standard matches.

 

[The Wrestling Addict]

If Kurt Angle goes over Cena in this tournament, I will no longer participate and it will prove that this tournament is a joke.

Angle is without a doubt the better wrestler. BUT THIS IS ABOUT THE BETTER CHAMPION!!! Let's see Angle sell as a WWE Champion like John Cena has.

 

[PHX]

I've seen that said a few times about if this person loses they aren't gonna vote anymore. Despite my opinion on who should and shouldn't win that is the point of having one of these things to see who wins based on our own opinions or else what would be the point of having this tourny.